In my most recent episode of the Parker’s Pensées Podcast (episode 248), CR Wiley came back on to share some wisdom with me. I struggled to come up with a unifying theme for our conversation since it was basically just me peppering him with questions about wisdom for my own thought pattern. I came up with “Wisdom for Young Men Living in a New World”. It was a fantastic conversation!
One of the key moments that stuck out to me from the episode was the distinction that Chris made between the Greek and the Roman heroic ideals. I think I’ve heard of these notions prior to this conversation but for whatever reason I was primed to receive them right at this moment—all the gears shifted into place and boom! A new core concept was unlocked.
Here’s a brief characterization based on Chris’s exposition in the episode—but wait, let me preempt something first. I haven’t looked into the history of ideas version of this distinction yet. I know some Hellenic scholar is going to come through and blast me with an “ackchyually…” if I don’t do this. So let me just stipulate, these are terms meant to pick out a phenomena that I’ve seen, especially in the American folkstyle wrestling world that I grew up in. The names of the concepts aren’t so important and I don’t think the history of the terms matter all that much either. “Was this really the exact way that the Romans thought of their heroes?” “Couldn’t we find a counter example to the characterization of the Greek ideal?” Dude, I don’t care. Focus on the content of the concepts not the name and history. Call ‘em what you want. I’m going to follow Chris’s terminology. So, here’s what I take these to mean:
Greek Heroic Ideal: revel in the glory of the moment. Adorn yourself in flair, bling. Flex your muscles for all to see, intimidate your opponents. Show your stuff, flaunt, talk yourself up, get the people going. They paid for a show and you’re here to deliver.
Roman Heroic Ideal: do your duty, honor, respect, divert compliments when possible, accept graciously when you can’t. Share as little words as necessary. Let your actions do the talking.
I’ve always resonated with the Roman heroic ideal, mostly because of the added pressure that comes from showboating. Pride comes before the fall and I really don’t want to invite a larger fall. I can imagine the proponents of the Greek ideal saying that’s a soft outlook and if you were truly confident you’d feel free to talk your stuff. I don’t think that’s right. In fact, quite the opposite. It seems to me that if you’re truly confident, you won’t need to gas yourself up. But this conversation with Chris has raised this debate in my mind anew. I wonder what you readers think. Is one of these ideals more “ideal” than the other?
If you want to listen to the full conversation (you do, trust me!), check out episode 248 of the Parker’s Pensées podcast here on my YouTube channel:
(You can also watch the video on Spotify or find the audio on your favorite podcast catcher)
I would tend to agree with you, Parker. I certainly prefer the Roman ideal and think that it more closely aligns with the biblical model of wisdom exemplified in the Book of Proverbs. I’m sure you have discussed the issue on your podcast (if you could refer me to the episode I would be most grateful), but I have spent some time pondering the relationship between Christianity and Stoicism (the Roman ideal, it seems) as of late, and I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on the subject. Thanks for the great content.