So, I just finished the battle between Jessica and Thufir, and it hit me. This whole book is one big bullfight. The bull and the matador change characters with each scene but … yea, one big bullfight. The impossible unbalancedness of power—never knowing who will be victorious: the bull or the matador.
I was convinced the whole way and you really tie it together with the fact that Herbert is using Jungian Psychology as a guiding driver of the novel.
The connections with the lady Jessica and her role as a Mary figure are interesting… it would seem she may be a corrupting figure too… via her interactions with the three men faltering…
I like Kynes, his quote “What is money, if it won’t buy the services you need?” Is golden!!! What’s the point of mining the spice for other peoples off world if Arrakis must suffer!!
Awesome essay, great book, looking forward to book club discussion!!
I replied to this earlier but I'm not seeing the comment anymore. I love the thought about Jessica being a corrupting force. Kynes is the man, that's a great quote! Thanks for reading with us and for reading my pieces. You're the man.
This is crazy timing for me as I am also reading through the Republic while reading Dune. Another connection I noticed in Jessica’s confrontation with Thufir she says, “Humans live best when each has his own place, when each knows where he belongs in the scheme of things.” This reminded me of Socrates’ description of the just city with everyone acting in accord with their nature.
I think your analysis of the four cardinal virtues as they relate to Paul's influencers and the development of his character as part of his preparation to succeed his father is excellent and spot on. However, as we will discover in the next section of our reading, there is a potential dark side to Paul's character that may not be fully revealed until the next novel - Messiah? Just guessing at that from what I've read of the next book. I know that novel is going to be a must-read for me after Dune. I love the complexity of Herbert's characters.
I'm wondering about the concept of the mentat "human computers," as the glossary at the back of the novel calls them. It's easy to understand why AI poses a danger to humans and why the Butlerian Jihad was necessary, but are human computers really such a good idea? It seems that in Thufir's confrontation with Jessica, his emotional intelligence suffers from too rigid a devotion to the logic of the situation. Humans have the capacity to think like computers, after all, we invented them, but there is much more to being human than logic.
Here are a couple of epigraphs so far that I find compelling:
"Any road followed precisely to its end leads precisely nowhere. Climb the mountain just a little bit to test that it's a mountain. From the top of the mountain, you cannot see the mountain." (89) I'm intrigued by this, but not quite sure about it's total meaning. It sounds wise, is it? If anyone is rolling their eyes at my philosophical ineptitude, please feel free to enlighten me.
"Greatness is a transitory experience. It is never consistent. It depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of human-kind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man. " (161) I think this is talking about being grounded, not listening when everybody tries to tell you how great you are, and understanding how fickle people's opinions are. This is where having people in your life who will be honest with you about yourself comes in.
“Any road followed precisely to its end leads precisely nowhere. Climb the mountain just a little bit to test that it's a mountain. From the top of the mountain, you cannot see the mountain."
I found it fascinating too. I think it could be linked to a process being the end goal and not something elusive in the end.
Besides that I really thought about the roads… And came to a realisation that if you follow a road to its very end there will be nothing. Usually that would be sort of a dead end in a bush…
The first line is the one I struggled with the most, and I think you nailed it: a road only serves its purpose when it leads you to a destination. As you say, a road followed to its end is a dead end, and is no road at all, even the opposite. So, as Steven Covey said a long time ago, "Begin with the end in mind." Know where you want to go before you start.
I think the second line about testing the mountain - if the mountain is a metaphor for a problem or obstacle to a goal - is something along the lines of the old saying, "Don't make a mountain out of a molehill." Don't blow a problem out of proportion.
A positive spin on the third line would be, again, seeing the mountain as something to overcome, that once a problem is overcome, rather than a problem, it becomes a vista to see the future, a tool for further growth.
But in the context of the story, I'm not sure this positive interpretation is warranted. The chapter is about Jessica uncovering the plot to kill Paul and the realization that there is a traitor in their midst. So the mountain top could be about the vulnerabilities of leadership, and the blind spots that all leaders are susceptible to.
Thanks for thinking about this with me. It's the sign of a great book when it inspires thinking from its readers.
Seeing you lay out the inspirations and influences deriving from philosophy and religion is super cool. It definitely enriches the reading experience and also is stuff I'm curious to learn more of.
A quote I thought went hard: " 'Bitterness I understand,' the Duke said. 'But let us not rail about justice as long as we have the arms and the freedom to use them'" My book edition page 93
Also something I've personally thought it so important for people to keep in mind in real life that Jessica says so eloquently: "Jessica heard the venom beneath his tone, spoke sweetly: 'When strangers meet, great allowance should be made for differences of custom and training.''" My book edition page 154
Also, there's a conversation with Paul and a guild Banker, where Paul jabs at the banker with an anecdote about fisherman climbing on top one another who are drowning. Was this just to call the banker immoral and selfish?
Also, I confess I'm actually 60 pages until the end 😭 I can't stop reading
So, I just finished the battle between Jessica and Thufir, and it hit me. This whole book is one big bullfight. The bull and the matador change characters with each scene but … yea, one big bullfight. The impossible unbalancedness of power—never knowing who will be victorious: the bull or the matador.
100% and there's more to come!
The cardinal virtues piece is so funny because I'm just getting to this bit of Plato's Republic in my first ever read through, great timing.
I love that!
This is superb Parker.
I was convinced the whole way and you really tie it together with the fact that Herbert is using Jungian Psychology as a guiding driver of the novel.
The connections with the lady Jessica and her role as a Mary figure are interesting… it would seem she may be a corrupting figure too… via her interactions with the three men faltering…
I like Kynes, his quote “What is money, if it won’t buy the services you need?” Is golden!!! What’s the point of mining the spice for other peoples off world if Arrakis must suffer!!
Awesome essay, great book, looking forward to book club discussion!!
I replied to this earlier but I'm not seeing the comment anymore. I love the thought about Jessica being a corrupting force. Kynes is the man, that's a great quote! Thanks for reading with us and for reading my pieces. You're the man.
This is crazy timing for me as I am also reading through the Republic while reading Dune. Another connection I noticed in Jessica’s confrontation with Thufir she says, “Humans live best when each has his own place, when each knows where he belongs in the scheme of things.” This reminded me of Socrates’ description of the just city with everyone acting in accord with their nature.
I think your analysis of the four cardinal virtues as they relate to Paul's influencers and the development of his character as part of his preparation to succeed his father is excellent and spot on. However, as we will discover in the next section of our reading, there is a potential dark side to Paul's character that may not be fully revealed until the next novel - Messiah? Just guessing at that from what I've read of the next book. I know that novel is going to be a must-read for me after Dune. I love the complexity of Herbert's characters.
I'm wondering about the concept of the mentat "human computers," as the glossary at the back of the novel calls them. It's easy to understand why AI poses a danger to humans and why the Butlerian Jihad was necessary, but are human computers really such a good idea? It seems that in Thufir's confrontation with Jessica, his emotional intelligence suffers from too rigid a devotion to the logic of the situation. Humans have the capacity to think like computers, after all, we invented them, but there is much more to being human than logic.
Here are a couple of epigraphs so far that I find compelling:
"Any road followed precisely to its end leads precisely nowhere. Climb the mountain just a little bit to test that it's a mountain. From the top of the mountain, you cannot see the mountain." (89) I'm intrigued by this, but not quite sure about it's total meaning. It sounds wise, is it? If anyone is rolling their eyes at my philosophical ineptitude, please feel free to enlighten me.
"Greatness is a transitory experience. It is never consistent. It depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of human-kind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man. " (161) I think this is talking about being grounded, not listening when everybody tries to tell you how great you are, and understanding how fickle people's opinions are. This is where having people in your life who will be honest with you about yourself comes in.
Love these read-alongs, so much fun!
“Any road followed precisely to its end leads precisely nowhere. Climb the mountain just a little bit to test that it's a mountain. From the top of the mountain, you cannot see the mountain."
I found it fascinating too. I think it could be linked to a process being the end goal and not something elusive in the end.
Besides that I really thought about the roads… And came to a realisation that if you follow a road to its very end there will be nothing. Usually that would be sort of a dead end in a bush…
The first line is the one I struggled with the most, and I think you nailed it: a road only serves its purpose when it leads you to a destination. As you say, a road followed to its end is a dead end, and is no road at all, even the opposite. So, as Steven Covey said a long time ago, "Begin with the end in mind." Know where you want to go before you start.
I think the second line about testing the mountain - if the mountain is a metaphor for a problem or obstacle to a goal - is something along the lines of the old saying, "Don't make a mountain out of a molehill." Don't blow a problem out of proportion.
A positive spin on the third line would be, again, seeing the mountain as something to overcome, that once a problem is overcome, rather than a problem, it becomes a vista to see the future, a tool for further growth.
But in the context of the story, I'm not sure this positive interpretation is warranted. The chapter is about Jessica uncovering the plot to kill Paul and the realization that there is a traitor in their midst. So the mountain top could be about the vulnerabilities of leadership, and the blind spots that all leaders are susceptible to.
Thanks for thinking about this with me. It's the sign of a great book when it inspires thinking from its readers.
Seeing you lay out the inspirations and influences deriving from philosophy and religion is super cool. It definitely enriches the reading experience and also is stuff I'm curious to learn more of.
A quote I thought went hard: " 'Bitterness I understand,' the Duke said. 'But let us not rail about justice as long as we have the arms and the freedom to use them'" My book edition page 93
Also something I've personally thought it so important for people to keep in mind in real life that Jessica says so eloquently: "Jessica heard the venom beneath his tone, spoke sweetly: 'When strangers meet, great allowance should be made for differences of custom and training.''" My book edition page 154
Also, there's a conversation with Paul and a guild Banker, where Paul jabs at the banker with an anecdote about fisherman climbing on top one another who are drowning. Was this just to call the banker immoral and selfish?
Also, I confess I'm actually 60 pages until the end 😭 I can't stop reading